- Next, a look at bipartisan collaboration on Capitol Hill.

A pair of female lawmakers from across the aisle successfully pushed two congressmen accused of sexual misconduct to resign.

Republican Anna Paulina Luna and Democrat Teresa Leger Fernandez argued that all the allegations against them made it impossible for Eric Swalwell and Tony Gonzalez to serve.

They joined Michelle Martin to discuss accountability and whether this signals a broader push for reform in Congress.

- Thanks, Christiane.

Representative Anna Paulina Luna and Representative Teresa Leger Fernandez, thank you both so much for joining us.

- Thank you so much for having us.

- Thank you, Michelle.

- How did you two start working together?

Who saw who first?

- I think actually first, we first connected during the vote by proxy and Representative Leger Fernandez reached out during the whole effort to expel both Eric Swalwell and Tony Gonzalez.

And we basically decided to work together on this very important issue.

And I'm glad we did 'cause we both won big.

- Look, we were all hearing just how polarized things are, you know, on the Hill.

The reality of it is that we don't hear a lot of kind of bipartisan sort of working.

Representative Leger Fernandez, how did it sort of occur to you that this might be a good idea to work together?

- So I'm chair of the Democratic Women's Caucus and we are always looking for ways in which we can work on a bipartisan basis with women in Congress, period.

And the issue of sexual assault and sexual violence has no partisan boundaries.

I was furious when I heard of the allegations against Eric Swalwell, when I saw the evidence.

I had also been very angry about Tony Gonzalez and the failure of Speaker Johnson, honestly, to take any action against Tony Gonzalez, who had admitted six weeks earlier that he had violated our code.

You saw Representative Anna Paulina Luna taking a very public stance about this was wrong with regards to Swalwell.

I called her up, I said, it's equally as wrong with regards to Representative Gonzalez.

And she agreed.

And so based on that phone call, we began a week long series of communications of work to accomplish what happened in pretty quick time.

I mean, from the not for Gonzalez, because that went on way too long, but for Swalwell, it was within four days, he had chosen to resign rather than face expulsion.

The allegations against both men are disturbing.

In Representative Gonzalez's case, first he denied having an affair with a subordinate, a subordinate who later took her own life, and then he later admitted it.

So he lied.

Representative Swalwell, slightly different in the sense it was more of like a drip, drip, drip, like one woman and then another woman and then another woman coming forward with these disturbing allegations, one of them a staffer.

So Representative Luna, what was the moment for you when you just said, Look, enough is enough?

Because the Ethics Committee was looking into these allegations.

I remember hearing, you know, the rumors early on about Tony.

And then when we saw the article drop shortly thereafter, I remember telling myself, I was like, this is not normal that you have a staffer letting themselves on fire there, there has to be more to this and I started doing my own digging.

And I was furious that initially after he made that admission that he decided that he was still going to seek re-election.

We have a lot of young people that come up on here, both men and women, and not to say that sexual harassment and assault doesn't happen to men, but specifically within this institution with younger women, it seems to be a very, very prevalent problem.

And if I had the votes to expel him right there, I would have.

And at the time, I didn't feel that I had those votes possible to get it done.

But I remember it was a Thursday before stuff started breaking on Swalwell.

There was another woman who came forward about inappropriate text messages and sexual harassment.

And I saw the messages from Tony and I was like, this is total predatory behavior.

I had also in between that time period obtained messages specifically from the widow of the woman who committed suicide and saw what was not publicly available at the request of the family not to release because they had a young child involved.

But the fact that ethics had sat on this and not made the recommendation right then and there as soon as they got those messages for him to be gone, I got really ticked off and I was like if I have to call my own party for this, I'm going to call you and you know that's when you kind of just saw it snowball.

Representative Leger Fernandez, what about you?

What was the what was the line where you said, you know what enough is enough.

We can't wait for the Ethics Committee.

Well, I think that expulsion is an extraordinary measure.

It's done very few times since our founding, but it's in our Constitution.

If you can convince two-thirds of your members that the actions are so heinous and outrageous, then you can expel a member for these kinds of actions.

They had violated the code.

And so I think that that's all you needed, was they violated a code that was very clear that was meant to protect women.

This is what Mr.

Swalwell says.

I just do need to read it.

He says, "I'm deeply sorry to my family, staff, and constituents for mistakes in judgment I've made in my past.

I will fight the serious false allegation made against me.

However, I must take responsibility and ownership for the mistakes I did make."

He says, "I'm aware of efforts to bring an immediate expulsion vote against me and other members.

Expelling anyone in Congress without due process within days of an allegation being made is wrong, but it's also wrong for my constituents to have me distracted from my duties.

Therefore, I plan to resign my seat in Congress."

Mr.

Gonzales, after having acknowledged this relationship, he posted on X saying, "There's a season for everything, and God has a plan for us all.

When Congress returns, I will file my retirement from office.

It's been my privilege to serve the great people of Texas.

So here's a question I have for you both.

Was the goal to force a formal vote or was it to create enough pressure that resignations became the most likely outcome?

It was multifaceted.

So I think, you know, deep down, both me and Leger Fernandez were hoping that they would do the right thing and resign.

And I again posted that if they had any ounce of integrity based on what was being presented to them, that they would not force everyone through this process, but that if we needed to, we would be willing to essentially pull the trigger and force the votes.

Of which you saw enough people on both sides come out and say, it's time for these guys to go.

And the common consensus on the Hill that week was it's time to take out the trash.

And I don't think it just stops there though.

What I've realized is that because you have such a consolidation of power, it is really hard for some of these people to come forward if they are being sexually harassed because they are feared that A, they're going to get blackballed within the Hill that they won't get hired and then also two, having to go through I think the media firestorm that's been created.

And I don't think that this is the end of what you're going to be hearing, at least from the Hill.

I think that there is some other stuff coming down the pipe.

What about this question of due process though?

Public figures in lots of fields, they're celebrities and celebrities will say that sometimes they do attract sort of false allegations.

So I just wanted to ask how that question of due process landed with both of you.

For my motion to expel, we had an admission.

You had a confession.

He said he did it, right?

And Americans are fed up with powerful men using and abusing women without consequence.

He admitted six weeks later he's still voting.

And you know what?

I had to file that motion because he, what you just read, he had said he was going to stay on maybe through May.

And I said, uh-uh, staying on through May isn't enough.

You need to resign and resign immediately.

And the reality to your question is, why did we do it?

Because if we wouldn't have filed the resolutions to expel, they wouldn't have resigned.

And when you think of what the evidence that came out with regards to Swalwell was overwhelming, and he kept nudging, he denied it as well.

His initial denials were, "I didn't have sex," right?

And then his subsequent denials were, "I didn't have sexual assault."

Now, our code says no sex, because the reason why there is no sexual relationships with a staffer is because that power relationship can never be undone.

You can never have consent when there is that power relationship, because our staffers rely on us for their paycheck, for their promotions, for their-they look up to us.

And that's why I think it's important that we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

It's important that if we are going to say we need to prosecute the Epstein predators, that we also need to hold ourselves to those same kind of standards.

I want to prosecute the Epstein predators.

I want to make sure that nobody and none of my colleagues are going to get away with this kind of behavior either.

Doesn't it mean that the fact that they resign doesn't mean that they get to keep their pensions?

Well, so if they have one or they pay into it, yes.

And that's what has to be changed now in the House Rules and I actually have some legislation that I'm working with another member of Congress on and I think that that will be bipartisanly supported.

The last time we saw this type of resignation happening was back in 2018.

And I think up until that point, it actually wasn't illegal to have an inappropriate sexual relationship with your staffer.

I think something else that can be added into that though to reform it is you know, not having inappropriate relationships with other people staffers because what we're finding again is this culture that's created.

There is an unfair power dynamic.

We are the company that we keep and we don't want to be associated with this type of behavior.

And when there was a failure for leadership on both sides to do the right thing, we stepped up to the plate.

But what we found after the fact is that many people were thankful for us for doing it and a lot of people had our back on it.

And so again, you know, this this code of conduct has to be the same across the board.

It can't be biased depending on who's in power.

And so I'm just hoping that we can continue to kind of work through this process.

It's definitely a growing pain, but I'd like to get back to the work of the American people.

To that end, though, you alluded to the fact that until 2018, Congress was actually exempt from most of the civil rights laws that applied to other places of business.

There really wasn't even any reporting mechanism if you were experiencing sort of this kind of conduct.

Is there still a legacy of impunity from that time when Congress really literally was exempt from the same laws that attached to other workplaces?

Yes, that does exist and what we are working on now because we can't say okay we got rid of these two there's others.

You know we have allegations against Corey Mills that needs to we need to get that done.

But what we are working really hard on is what do we need to do to build on the reforms that Jackie Speier started back in 2018.

And so we are having those meetings now.

We are looking at what are the legislative, what are the legal changes we need to do?

Because it needs to happen on two bases.

One is we have to reform the systems and the processes that kept these women from reporting it.

And two, we need to change the culture so the people who come here know that they can't use their power as I get to do whatever I want to my staff or anybody else's staff.

And it takes this outrage that I think percolated up with regards to these two men, the outrage that has percolated up because of the Epstein survivors.

We are done with it.

Like, I am so done with men thinking that they can take advantage of women in this way just because they have power.

You've alluded to another member, Corey Mills of Florida, who has been accused by two different women, not congressional staff, of inappropriate conduct.

In fact, one actually had a restraining order against him.

Another woman, apparently there was a police encounter in Washington, D.C.

related to him.

She didn't move forward with sort of charges.

I guess one of the things, and so that matter is also before the ethics committee as well.

I am curious if you feel, as a person who's called leadership into account for not, in your view, taking these matters as seriously as they should have, do you think you're paying a price for this?

- There's a couple of members, to be clear.

It's not just Corey, there's a couple.

One of them's a senator, and I've been cooperating with Senate Ethics over there.

I actually just wrote an op-ed in a place I think the spectator yesterday about the overhaul the ethics need to see I think ethics need to complete gutting and I need it.

I think it needs to be reappointed with people that will take these allegations seriously.

I think it shouldn't take three years.

People that are sitting under ethics investigations, what will typically happen is from what I gather, party in power basically will slow roll the release of certain things.

And I take abuse very seriously, right?

Like I've had friends that have been in abusive relationships and I know what that can do to people.

And so when I hear these types of things happening, and remember you have a sitting member of Congress that's facing these allegations, that's not a good thing.

And there's multiple things there.

I don't care if it's a Democrat or a Republican.

If there is evidence of violation of our code of conduct in the House, our rules, FEC reporting rules, FEC laws, or if someone's facing and has legal documentation showing that they've done something illegal, then they should not be serving in the House of Representatives.

And if someone calls up an expulsion vote, I will vote to expel that member.

To Leger Fernandez's point, this process has taken far too long.

And too many people that were guilty, okay?

You had Tony Gonzalez, he should have been out.

You had Zualla, he was out fairly quickly.

And then you had Chynn Fliss McCormick, who was under investigation for three years.

She should have been out.

And so that's what I'm saying is that we have to change the process.

But again, we are doing this in addition to everything else that we're doing in addition to now fighting for reelections.

And so I just hope that we can continue to provide the building blocks to continue to further and push this conversation.

But I do think right now, big changes are happening.

And again, you saw three resignations within a week.

So that tells you something.

- But I'm asking you, do you think that you are paying a price for your advocacy in this area?

Because as you pointed out, Congress is still a top-down place.

- Yeah, yeah, I've been for sure on some issues that I've advocated for.

I'll just tell you directly, I pushed for a vote by proxy for new moms.

And I know for a fact that people in leadership planted articles about me to try to make me look bad.

So yeah, I definitely think I am.

- What about you Representative Leger Fernandez?

I mean, obviously Democrats are in the minority at the moment, but I do wonder whether you feel like leadership sees you as a thorn in the side.

I will say that I am not only not a thorn in the side, I am thanked.

I mean, there is a lot of gratitude coming from my leadership for the work that we have been doing, both myself personally, working together because we do see it as a bipartisan matter, working together with Representative Luna and and saying, like, how do we now begin the conversations to reframe it?

I got support from my leadership from the day I called them.

Like, I was so mad Friday night.

And I had been talking to them about Gonzalez, about what can we do about Gonzalez?

Our problem is he wasn't a member of our party.

Right.

And it was a little harder for us because we didn't have the votes.

But it was that's what it took.

It was it took represent Luna and I teaming up, knowing that we could deliver the votes on both of these men on a bipartisan basis.

But my leadership was with me.

My leadership is with me now.

And we look at saying, how do we work together?

Do we frame this process?

And it absolutely must be bipartisan based.

It has to include all of us.

OK, so before we let you go, let's talk about what needs to happen going forward.

So we need to take those reforms that were began by Jackie Speier and we need to update them to reflect the moment we're in, including the moment we're in with regards to what the social media looks like, what all of that looks like.

And we need to rely on who are the experts here.

And I keep saying we know who the experts are.

They're the women who work for Congress because they're going to be able to share with us why aren't they reporting?

What do they need?

What do they need so they feel protected and respected when they file a complaint?

How, because right now it takes so long, you're forced into mediation, it goes, there's so many different offices.

How do we get that streamlined?

How do we make sure that we have those conversations across the line and get something done?

We can't wait till next year.

We can't say, well, we're going to wait, right?

We're going to wait until when Democrats get the gavels, we'll work on this.

But this is a bipartisan issue.

We need to work.

I've already talked to some of the leaders on the other side.

We've been, I've been as the Democratic Women's Caucus, I've been asking to sit down with Johnson since basically the week I got elected.

There's 96 Democratic women in the House.

He's refused to sit down with me.

Hopefully, maybe he'll sit down with Representative Luna and I together.

Those are the next steps that then we actually I think there's some laws we need to pass.

And then there's just some processes we need to change.

In addition to that idea that this is no longer guys, it ain't an old boys club, a young boys club.

It is America's house.

> We need more - Representative Anna Paulina Luna, Representative Teresa Leger Fernandez, thank you both so much for talking with us.

- Thank you.

- Thank you, Michelle.

- And that's it for our program tonight.

If you want to find out what's coming up every night, sign up for our newsletter at pbs.org/amanpour.

Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

[music]