♪ [heroic music] ♪ ♪ ♪ - Hello and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is in the studio, it is cartoonist Ashley Belote.

Ashley, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Thank you so much for having me, I am thrilled to be here.

- Ashley, you are an accomplished author, but this is your first graphic novel.

So can you tell us a little bit about "Squirrel Lock Holmes"?

- Yes, yes.

So I have been working in publishing for about 10 years and I've got 10 total books out.

The nine previous books were all picture books.

So short form, larger format picture books for children.

This was my very first graphic novel.

I have been a comics fan and an old fashioned animation fan for my entire life and have always wanted to break into this space.

And "Squirrel Lock Holmes" was the story to do it with.

So I have been loving every minute of it, learning every step of the way.

- Storybooks or picture books are a lot different than sequential art in a graphic novel.

So what was something that you learned that was one of those, oh wow, this is a big difference in between the two processes?

- So there is so much more character work with graphic novels versus picture books.

With picture books, you'll likely see a main character once on a spread, maybe twice.

There are spot illustrations used in picture books for some rapid sequences, but not nearly as much.

So with graphic novels, there are characters present in almost every single panel.

So that's something that you really have to get used to.

And I actually loved it because it meant that you could create so many more expressions for your characters.

And that's one of my favorite parts about character design is making them feel all sorts of things and move in all sorts of different directions.

So with the graphic novel format, I was able to thoroughly explore that factor.

So it was a ton of fun because of that.

- One of the things that we don't necessarily think about when we think about comics and graphic novels, the fact that you are like a director with actors on the page.

So when you are sitting down and you realize that you have to do more of this character work, what's your process for getting into each character and giving them that unique feeling?

So that way, Watson's different than Squirrel Lock is different than, I forget the rabbit's name.

- Reggie.

- Reggie Rabbit.

- You know, so you've got all these different characters.

How do you find that individual look and voice for them on the page?

- You know, I honestly become them.

I feel like every author illustrator has a little theater in them.

So regardless of if they did it in school or professionally at all, we sometimes have to embody our characters.

And for me, when I get an idea and I'm thinking about what these characters could get into, I almost try to play it through in my head like a movie first so that when I do start putting it on paper, I have a general idea of where we're going.

And then I have to add in the personality.

So I go into my imagination and I become Squirrel Lock Holmes and I think about, okay, if I'm going through the forest and I have to experience X, Y, and Z, what would I do?

And I also use myself as a reference for facial expressions with different things.

I have a mirror in my art studio and I just take pictures of me and my hands and my face and my different things that you do when you have different reactions to certain situations.

So yes, I become Squirrel Lock and then I become Watson.

And Watson is like the comic relief character.

So the funny things happen to him, you know, and with Reggie, Reggie's just very dramatic the whole time.

So any kind of over the top dramatic reaction, that's Reggie's deal.

So yes, I very much am in tune with them and their personalities, so I am them.

- And as somebody who is writing a character, and granted, you know, the picture books are going to be a little bit, because of the age of the intended audience, it's not as sophisticated as, let's say, Dune.

But there is a certain sophistication to the character because we are trying to speak to children, not insult them.

So as you are sort of coming up with this graphic novel and it's more of the sequential artwork, how do you sort of back off with what the words might say and let the art show compared to what you might do in one of your picture books?

- Yes, I think that's probably the largest challenge that we face with picture books and graphic novels.

You know, picture books are, it's amazing what kids can understand and infer from artwork.

So the art and the pictures really do have to work together there to an extent.

You do have to provide more of a direction though.

So with the art in graphic novels, the story does have to move forward with it.

And a lot of that can be done with expressions.

So, you know, if Watson's feeling sad, you don't ever have to say, "Watson, where are you sad?"

You just show Watson being sad.

So a lot of it is like emotional responses you can show.

The other thing with graphic novels is you have such limited space.

So you can't have characters speaking these paragraph-long monologues.

Otherwise the entire page will be their speech bubble.

So you have to really let the emotions come through.

And I think that's where I love the character design aspect of it because you can pull in all those expressions.

So I think that you can have a lot of like sympathy and empathy and feelings come through in the art and then use the text to prod along like, okay, we've done A, B, and C. Now we have to move on to, and then, you know, kind of continue it more from like the analytical perspective in the words versus in the art.

- Like you said, kids are a lot more sophisticated than we think.

And one of the things that I noticed in the book was that you have big people words, you know, like geologists.

And then you have a definition of what it is.

And then you have some other stuff.

I think there's one little picture and there's like some little sign on it that, and it's a grownup word again.

I mean, not like a four letter grownup word, but a grownup word that we would expect, you know, oh, somebody in seventh or eighth grade would just be learning this word now.

So when you are writing this story, because this is a younger audience than let's say the young adult or the middle grades, this is that person who's maybe going to start reading their first book.

- Yes.

- How do you make that decision to put in something that's going to challenge and excite them to learn about, but not alienate them when they say, oh, I don't know what a big word is.

- Yeah, so you pick and choose.

And that's honestly one of the main things that I learned working on this book.

Because when you have a picture book, you can use big $10 words because an adult is reading that book to a child.

And even though they don't know what a geologist is, if they hear it, they'll infer what it is by the story or maybe the story explains it.

But like you said, with graphic novels, this is sometimes the very first book that the audience is reading on their own.

This one in particular is targeted to about first or fourth grade.

And so they are, you know, they're new readers.

And there's also so many kids that are struggling readers.

And you want everybody to be able to make it through this book.

That being said, you also want them to learn a little something too.

So that when they graduate to the middle grade, the YA's, they're more prepared.

You know, a lot of, there's some, a little stigma, not as much as there used to be, a little stigma with, you know, being an issue with graphic novels as they're so visual that it's perceived as, you know, sometimes as not reading.

But I don't think that's true at all.

This is definitely, it definitely qualifies as reading a book because of course there are words, but you're also reading the pictures.

And I think that the fact that the art helps tell the story so much also helps aid this age group in making it through the book.

Now, with the definitions, when I first wrote the very first draft, I sent it to my editor, Jenna, and she was incredible explaining this concept to me.

She's like, you know, these kids are reading this on their own.

She's like, pick four.

So I went through and, you know, we did this for every single book there's definitions in every single one.

And we, you know, put out the syllables so that you can sound it out on your own.

So yes, you just have to be, you have to pick and choose.

And the words that we chose are very pertinent to the story.

So geologist is in there, you know, it's a missing pet rock.

You have to have some kind of rock fact.

And we've done that with, like I said, the next two books that are coming out in the series as well.

So picking and choosing and then keeping your audience in mind, it's two very important lessons that I learned.

- One thing that I did notice, and I don't know if the kids will, but their parents certainly will.

Squirrel Lock is hired by Reggie Rabbit to find his pet rock, Dwayne.

- Yes, Dwayne.

- So I'm thinking about those classic cartoons, whether it's the Simpsons or it's the classic Warner Brothers or even SpongeBob, where there's stuff in there the kids are going to really get and enjoy the story.

But there's also going to be those jokes in there that they aren't going to get, but their parents are.

So I'm thinking Dwayne as the name of the rock is something that mom or dad is going to have a good chuckle at.

And, you know, the kids are not going to understand that.

So what's your thought process with these little Easter eggs?

- Yeah, so I do this in my picture books as well.

I'm very conscious of the experience that my audience is having with any book that I work on.

With picture books, I always hide adult jokes in there that only a parent will understand.

And a kid will laugh, but they're not really sure why.

And because we are the ones reading these books over and over and over again, so I want the parents to be a little bit entertained as well.

So I decided to kind of take that same concept and transfer it to my graphic novel.

However, I have been doing school visits.

I do a ton of school visits with my work, and it's my favorite thing.

Every single class, when I first explain that, you know, poor Dwayne is missing, one kid will get it and he'll be like, Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, and then all the kids.

Because he's been in so many movies that their generation is watching, so they get it.

And I have been very, very impressed with how many kids have gotten it.

Now, not all of them will.

I did share this with a kindergarten class, mostly just to talk about characters, and we would draw a little bit.

And the teachers thought it was hilarious.

And I was like, yes, that's a joke for my grown-up friends in this particular setting.

Yeah.

- And something else you mentioned, and this is something that, again, you pointed out that graphic novels don't get the respect as far as encouraging literacy as they should.

And I think back to when I was younger, you know, there'd be the Scholastic Book Fair, and if there was a volume of Peanuts comic strips in there, it was great, because, you know, I would gravitate toward that.

But 99% of the books would be the Judy Blume or some other book about dinosaurs, let's say.

- Yeah.

- Whereas now, if you go to the book fairs, Scholastic is one of the largest publishers of graphic novels in the entire industry.

So what do you think that shift is, where's that coming from, and what does that mean for, I guess, the next group of readers who are going to see this as a gateway rather than an educator saying it's, you know, junk food.

- Yeah.

- And literature is really the vegetables.

- I mean, it definitely used to be looked at as that.

And I think that because of their popularity, like librarians can't keep them on the shelves.

Bookstores are seeing huge sales with graphic novels.

It's something that the audience wants.

So, of course, from a -- because this is a business, from a business perspective, if somebody is trying to buy these things, you're going to give them more of these things.

So I think the boom in publication of graphic novels has also helped.

Because, again, we've seen that the kids want these types of stories, and they want to read them in this format.

So they have definitely gained a lot of respect.

And then, you know, the huge companies like Scholastic Book Fair having them available and have them be easily accessible is a huge thing as well.

So we're definitely seeing a lot more publication of these types of books.

We're seeing a lot more artists who have a background and loving peanuts being like, oh, finally.

Because these are long-form comic books.

That's all -- I mean, they're, you know, this is a shorter one.

This one's about 80 pages.

And, you know, they can have a range of, you know, lower, higher, but, yeah, we're really seeing kids love these.

And I think that one of the reasons is because our culture in general is so visual now.

You know, books are competing with television, video games, like that, which I love as well.

And I tell kids this, that I love movies.

I love cartoons.

I love playing video games because I'm a visual person.

And because our culture is so predominantly visual-based, I think that's why kids are gravitating towards this, because it's what they're seeing every day.

So now that's kind of translating into their reading literacy material as well.

- And when we think about comics as a medium, it is really a great way to tell any type of story.

And the fact that you can scale it up or down, depending on the age of the reader, the sophistication of the reader, is just -- it just makes it as vibrant as television or any other form of entertainment, because you can just kind of work with different ideas and make it accessible and make it have real merit and value.

And one thing that I do want to talk about -- again, you're saying that this is going to be maybe one of the first books that a child reads.

So when you are planning out a story like this, what do you think about to make sure that the story's not too complicated, but not too simple for them, that they're going to want to keep reading it, but not feel intimidated because of 85 pages?

- That's something that I think every book creator, regardless of age group, deals with.

You have to constantly remind yourself who you're writing this for.

You know, this is not for me in my age group.

You know, this is -- so I have to put myself into their shoes.

So it's very similar to how I embody my characters when I take them on adventures.

I embody my audience as well.

And that typically comes in the writing process.

So I think about things that I liked when I was that age.

I think about things that I didn't like when I was that age.

Also, I think about what was important to me during that time period.

And especially like for this one, you know, I was thinking about that time, you know, first to fourth grade.

And I had a pet rock and thought it was like the coolest thing ever.

So I'm like, surely kids would think that's like funny that they're like missing this pet rock.

And, you know, so you really do have to constantly think about that.

But then, like we were talking earlier, you don't want to belittle them or ever talk down to them.

You want to talk with them.

So I -- that's part of the reason that I think this book was such a learning experience because I got to take my characters on a much longer adventure.

And in terms of like you were saying, you don't want them to be intimidated by the fact that it's 80 pages.

That's where the format really helps.

Because when you open up a chapter book, it's all words.

And that can definitely be intimidating.

Not for every kid.

Some kids, that's what they love.

And that's why those books exist.

But not every kid is like that.

So I feel like when you open up this book and you see, you know, five to ten words per speech bubble, four to six speech bubbles on a page, you think, oh, I can do that.

Plus, I love when the art does something.

I love active art.

I love, you know, I have a background in 2D animation.

And I loved stretching characters and squishing them and making them jump and change.

And I think that when you have active art, like in these books, that also makes you want to keep reading.

- Kids are learning how to read expressions and how to read body language.

- Yes.

- And a book like this provides them with another way to do that because it's not just, you know, see Jane run.

It's we see Jane run.

We see why she's upset that she fell.

And it's another way, I guess, of learning emotion.

- Yes.

- As well as learning how to read and how to, I guess, figure out the context behind something.

- Sure.

And it teaches you sympathy and empathy and curiosity.

You know, if you see a character peering into like a dark space, you're immediately curious, what's in there?

And again, you become the character as well.

And that's what I want kids to do when they read this is I want them to feel like they're with Squirrel Lock and Watson solving this mystery.

And you give, I can also give clues in the art as well and kind of do some visual foreshadowing, which I like to try to do in picture books as well.

But here, this is the place to really do it.

So you try to drop hints.

And then, you know, and that also promotes, I always want to promote rereadability by adding details to my artwork.

And that lends itself better to the picture book format because those books are typically larger.

Here, again, you're limited with space.

But I've still managed to do it.

[laughs] - And, you know, one thing about the art is that it's very bright.

It's very clear.

It's, there's a lot of character work going on there.

And I'm wondering, are you doing this in the modern method where, again, your background is in 2D animation?

Is this something where you're just leaning back on the Cintiq or the Procreate on the iPad?

Or are you getting out the board, the brush, and the pen and kind of doing it that way?

- So I'm a hybrid artist.

I will sketch traditionally on paper first.

I feel like I get my best ideas when I go back to those traditional materials.

And I've talked with a lot of artists.

I have a ton of artist friends.

And a lot of them agree.

That's not always possible, though, because if you're traveling, it's easier to carry sometimes your iPad than it is to carry a sketchbook with all of your other things.

I try to carry both.

But, yeah, I will oftentimes sketch traditionally, pull my art into my digital program.

And I will sometimes color test with paint if I'm looking for a more subtle color.

So when I'm looking for more of a bright color, I really do love the digital color options.

I feel like they are, the undo button is an amazing thing, you know?

And plus, there's no, you can't fault yourself if you mess up 'cause all you have to do is open a new document.

Whereas if you mess up in person, there's a piece of paper.

So I feel like you're a little bit more uninhibited when you play around with some digital coloring.

And it helps me open my mind up a little bit more.

And it helps me test, I think, a little bit more.

And I just love the vibrancy that you can get.

I actually work in Procreate and Photoshop.

So I feel like my art has improved tremendously because of those formats, coupled with my love of the traditional aspects as well.

- And you mentioned the undo button.

And I know that the undo button is both a blessing and a curse.

- It is.

- Because we are oftentimes, I do traditional comic book style artwork when I have time.

I love getting away from technology, but I also have a tablet hooked up to my Mac and I can try stuff in Clip Studio.

And it's fun, but there's the temptation, I could do it better and I keep hitting that undo or I'll create a new layer and I'll just keep trying to work on something.

And I find I can either lose the magic of the spontaneity of that cool line that I did with my hand on paper.

But also if I'm trying to do something in a timely fashion, undo is just me, I'm just wasting time trying to get it just right.

So do you find yourself saying, you know what, sometimes this is good enough, not that it's not good, but it's good enough that I don't need to keep trying to make it perfect.

Because as they say, what perfect is the enemy of the good or something like that.

- Yeah, so see, this is why I am called an iCloud hog, because if I make something spontaneously and it's really cool, I will just keep it and be like, oh, okay, duplicate that document, start over here.

So my iCloud space is bonkers.

I have so many external hard drives.

Yeah, so I'm on a family plan and I have every single bit possible belongs to me.

But what I find is deadlines help a lot with this because eventually you just have to finish it.

And I find that I always think that this is going to be printed and put into the hands of kids.

And in this particular case, Random House's name is on it.

It needs to be perfect.

I need to try my best for my publisher.

I need to try my best for my audience and I need to try my best for myself.

And there's no such thing as a perfect book, but I'm always very proud of the work that I put out.

And to me it is perfect because I know that I put every single ounce of effort and time and energy into it that I could have possibly done.

But yes, eventually you just have to say, I have to move on from this page.

And when I hit that wall and I just can't get something to where I want it, I just put that, like, that's again, a nice thing with having 80 pages.

I just put it away and I work on one of my other 79 pages and then I go back.

And usually I can solve the problem by then.

But one thing about that spontaneous aspect of traditional art, I will use traditional art to create textures a lot.

I love creating texture with like charcoal.

I love doing rubbings of like concrete and pulling texture from life and putting it into this format.

So I make a lot of brushes too.

So I just think it's a lovely, you know, kind of marriage between the two worlds.

- It's interesting.

I find paper has a real interesting look.

I do a lot of work with a light box and you see the fibers and how they come together.

And if you take a picture of that, it really looks amazing.

And you don't quite get that built into your digital platform, but if you're able to go out and just see something and put it together and incorporate that, that's a brilliant way to work.

- It's really fun.

And that's something that I started doing years ago.

I went to the ICON Conference for the first time.

It was in Austin and it was early 2000, teens, sometime there.

And I took an Adobe class and I had just gotten my iPad and I had just played around with a little bit, you know, not gone too far into the deep depths of all the things and down the rabbit holes yet.

And one of the instructors was saying that, you know, she was making her own brushes.

And I thought, oh my gosh, how fun.

And I have no idea what she said the rest of the time because I was of course playing with this.

So yeah, I think that that's a wonderful function.

Again, where you can merge reality and this digital format.

- I think digital art is interesting in that it allows you to create the tools that you use in somebody else's platform.

Whereas if I'm writing a document, I'm not going to recreate something in Word that is unique to me.

It just seems like that would be a waste.

But creating a unique brush that does, oh, it's a combination watercolor and dry brush.

That could be, you know, a game changer for someone doing a project like that.

- Yes.

I think too, we have to be conscious of the fact that more and more people have access to these tools.

Again, which is great.

But the more and more people who are using Procreate to create art, it's going to start to potentially look similar.

And one of my heroes in illustration is Molly Idol.

I love her books.

And she, I did a portfolio review with her years ago.

And she said, keep your traditional skills sharp.

And she was so totally right.

Because if we're all out there creating artwork, of course it's going to look different if I draw something and you draw something.

But if we're using the same tools, there's going to be some similarity there.

So that's why I'm constantly trying to reinvent my brushes because it will keep me different from somebody else.

- And I see we probably have about three minutes left in our conversation.

I'm thinking back to my childhood and books that spoke to me that I still think of today.

There was, I belonged to a book club that I would get two books a month, thanks mom.

And one was of course, "Frog and Toad."

And then the other was a book that I don't think too many people know about.

It was by Wallace Tripp, I believe is the author, is "Sir Toby Jingle's Beastly Journey" about a knight who's about to retire, who gathers all of his old foes, all these great creatures and joins a circus basically.

- Fun.

- What was the book for you?

- So, huge Judy B. Jones fan, okay.

Second grade, we had a project and we had to create a book and write, we had to write a story, make illustrations.

And then we had to also contact an author we admired.

Now, I love every single Judy B. Jones book equally.

If I had to pick a favorite, I don't know that I could.

They are all so different and well done in their own way.

So that series as a whole was kind of the series that did it for me.

So I wrote to Barbara Park and I told her my name.

I said, dear, I vividly remember, "Dear Barbara Park, my name's Ashley.

"I wanna be an author and an illustrator.

"I love Judy B. Jones, and I've been her for Halloween "the past three years in a row."

[laughs] And so our project was to create this story and contact an author and that was it.

But she wrote me back.

It was so amazing and she was encouraging.

And I knew that somebody had, somebody who created this book, created it and talked to me about it.

So it was real.

Because a lot of times when you see a book on a shelf, you don't see all the work that went into it.

And it's hard to understand that a person created this.

So for her to put that human connection with the work I admired, that's what did it for me.

And I knew that if she could do it, I could do it too.

And she told me that and I wish that I, I mean, she has unfortunately passed away.

I wish that I could tell her what that meant to me because it was everything.

- Well, Ashley, we are just about out of time.

If the folks watching at home wanted to find out more about you, where can they find you on the web?

- Yes, I have a website, ashleybelote.com.

And all of my books have links to where you can purchase them there.

Again, this one is with Random House, an amazing team.

I have learned so much and love working with them.

So you can buy "Squirrel Lock Holmes" on Random House website as well.

- Well, Ashley, thank you so much for making the drive to Pembroke.

It's been a fun and fast half hour.

- I know.

Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate it.

- And thanks everyone at home for watching Comic Culture.

We will see you again soon.

[heroic music] ♪ ♪ ♪ - Comic Culture is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, giving broadcasting majors professional experience and onscreen credit before they graduate.

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